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Ferre
12-08-2009, 02:29 PM
Muddy, I tend to agree and disagree with the bashing thing. For one, indeed good manners provide most of us with the build in restriction to be bashing other forums and people only for reasons of revenge or grief based upon subjective reasons.

However, when things or people in society are structurally wrong and/or devious it is justified to expose them as such and ridicule them if there is solid ground for it.

I was a supermoderator there for a long time myself, and trust me, there are things structurally wrong there. The moment I addressed the issues (behind closed doors, in the mods section) that were morally and ethically wrong I got kicked out the mods team and on top of that I suddenly found a very violent and aggressive tone towards me from the owner in discussions (with things like "pothead" and such to address me personally) and banning me entirely from one forum, the politics forum, because of my views (which are in fact not so radical, I'm an ordinary Dutch guy with no political affiliation at all).

When the owner sold the forum my access to that political forum was restored by the new owner, only to see myself getting banned because I participated in a discussion about teaching creationism in science class where I showed disdain for the pseudo-science and the dealers of this idea behind it. (apart from a load of indisputable evidence to support my arguments)

The new owner turned out to be an American christian-richt winger, you know, the ones with the loud mouth about "family values"

As a test to his ethics I wrote him a peace offering email in which I also offered him a large amount of financial gain in the form of business I happen to be in the position of being able to distribute his way and explained I wanted to have my access to the forums restored.

A also placed an order for a few grand at his business and paid for it.

he then answered my email with a load of rubbisch and "rules" that I had to comply to in order to have my access restored in which I replied that I wanted to do business with him and participate at his forums on a equal basis, no belittling from any side, for which his answer was to send me back the money and refusing my business, the man obviously can't handle social contacts without a superiority deal and some (over)power position.

And that's what is ethically and structurally wrong there. the only kind of people they accept are those who agree with them and who lick their boots, as soon as people have different opinions and do not like to be belittled they simply ban them.

I tell you something, shit as absurd as this doesn't happen in my part of the woods, it's just too batshit crazy and unethical.

Oh yeah, the things I addressed behind closed doors that I didn't agree on was the fact that the owner had the habit of going into people's accounts when they didn't agree with him in discussions and turn their green bar all the way to red, making it look like they had a lot of negative feedback, while in reality it was only the owner, he even changed people's signature in a few occasions. I thought (foolish me) that because we were friends for a few years I could attend him to this not-so-nice habit that he created, little did I know that the dude did not ragard me as a friend at all, since after that he started to call me names and spit out venom in my direction.

Anyway, as I said, exposing bullshit is not "bashing", it's filtering out the crap.

Muddy
12-08-2009, 03:12 PM
1. It wasn't my intent to chastise anyone. I totally agree with you that in most cases an inborn sense of propriety will prevent inappropriate behavior. I also agree that injustice often happens on this imperfect planet. Especially in these "written word only" venues. A case in point was your banning "IMHO". While I'll be very candid with you in saying that I would have attempted to use more diplomatic terms then you did, there is also nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. Shortly after you were banned another member pressed his arguments even less diplomatically than you. I pointed this out (Zap can verify) and thankfully the thread was closed. Had it not been, I might not be there now because to allow it to remain would have been blatant hypocrisy. I still felt bad about you being gone because I always liked you and think you use your noggin in a world of non noggin users. Even if you are a pothead! lol! JUST KIDDING!

2. I don't know anything about your business relationship with the current owner. I guess it's his prerogative to accept or refuse business as he sees fit. Seems like a strange business decision on his part but you're probably both better off in the long run.

3. Not sure which owner you're taking about (new or old) in reference to the rep tampering etc., but I can probably guess.

4. In summary, please understand that I was NOT accusing anyone of bashing. I have no problem with exposing bullshit either. I'll clearly state that what I was doing was lobbing a gentle reminder out so that normal and appropriate discussion and/or complaints don't become out and out bashing...which would just lead to hopefully avoidable unpleasantness.

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I have no problem with exposing bullshit either.

You can't expose bullshit without exposing bullshiter

;)


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krisma5
12-08-2009, 03:55 PM
true, that is unavoidable.

Muddy
12-08-2009, 04:01 PM
You can't expose bullshit without exposing bullshiter

;)


fastreplies

I come back to the old adage, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Nothing wrong with exposing bullshit and bullshitter. But when done artfully it's much more dignified and satisfying.

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 04:10 PM
I come back to the old adage, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Nothing wrong with exposing bullshit and bullshitter. But when done artfully it's much more dignified and satisfying.

Granted, and to that I can say:
IMHO only ranter managed to perfect that technique.
But even then, I wonder for how long Mr. J.S. will tolerate him around.

;)

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Muddy
12-08-2009, 04:13 PM
Ranter did indeed make improvements and is to be commended. :lepwink:

BTW, IMHO I think J.S. likes him!

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 04:23 PM
BTW, IMHO I think J.S. likes him!

I dont think so but, what I do believe that hes maybe first time in his life realized that some people are smarter and better then him in art of debate while in the same time hes waiting for an opportunity to get even.

;)

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Muddy
12-08-2009, 04:29 PM
...hes waiting for an opportunity to get even.

;)

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LOL!!!

*imagines character in crouched position twinkle toeing behind a Pagoda!*

Ferre
12-08-2009, 04:31 PM
J.S. is not in the position to ban anyone over there any more, as long as ranter doesn't chase miss southern coffee in her harness he'll be in a pretty safe position.

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 04:55 PM
... in reference to the rep tampering etc., but I can probably guess.

That explains how my 11 greens turned into 11 reds overnight

:sqmad:

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fastreplies
12-08-2009, 05:00 PM
J.S. is not in the position to ban anyone over there any more, as long as ranter doesn't chase miss southern coffee in her harness he'll be in a pretty safe position.

Reading their posts, it looks like they are kind and sympathetic to each other.

But then again, what do I know

:sqwink:

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Ferre
12-08-2009, 05:11 PM
That explains how my 11 greens turned into 11 reds overnight

:sqmad:

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Yep, and when I addressed the man about that nasty and rather childish habit of his he turned ballistic on me and that's when I found myself not long after that incident de-modded and banned from the politics forum. I know at least one person here who has access to that mod forum over there and can see for himself (if it's not removed) that I made a post on that subject and that after I did that I suddenly was "out of grace".

The sad part is that my colleague moderators showed zero solidarity, they all accepted this shit and went along and they don't even get paid for it, they do it "for the community" while when the owner is misbehaving and abusing his powers which is not-so-good for that same community they just go on as if nothing ever happened, that's the really sad part.

Strong
12-08-2009, 05:17 PM
Guys, Please!

We are not here to bash other people. Especially people that are not here to answer for themselves.

Atom
12-08-2009, 05:21 PM
Yep, and when I addressed the man about that nasty and rather childish habit of his he turned ballistic on me and that's when I found myself not long after that incident de-modded and banned from the politics forum. I know at least one person here who has access to that mod forum over there and can see for himself (if it's not removed) that I made a post on that subject and that after I did that I suddenly was "out of grace".

The sad part is that my colleague moderators showed zero solidarity, they all accepted this shit and went along and they don't even get paid for it, they do it "for the community" while when the owner is misbehaving and abusing his powers which is not-so-good for that same community they just go on as if nothing ever happened, that's the really sad part.You can't expect mods to take sides. I don't. I don't expect that from them.

Atom
12-08-2009, 05:26 PM
If they're asked to participate in a vote then yeah, but otherwise no. We weren't asked to vote.

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 05:34 PM
Yep, and when I addressed the man about that nasty and rather childish habit of his he turned ballistic on me.

Believe me I know how you feel but please do yourself a favor and leave it all behind and you'll sleep better as result.

Living in the past means repeating the same past again and again.
Be today, here and now!

:sqwink:


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Ferre
12-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Guys, Please!

We are not here to bash other people. Especially people that are not here to answer for themselves.

Strong, please, you have conflicting interests, when you don't like this conversation, don't read it. As for not able to defend themselves, unlike theirs, this is an open forum, why don't you point them to this tread so they do have the opportunity, I'm sure this will give an interesting conversation, specially when it's levelled out and they can't silence me.

I like you a lot Strong, but this is on my chest for a very long time and being cut off from people I had good relationships with for nearly seven years because of some religious zealot doesn't agree with free speech isn't something I take lightly. I was voted member of the year one time remember? That was not because I'm such a nuisance or because I had bad relations with the other members, hell, I know most members longer than you do, I joined there in 2002 when it still had another name, you joined in 2007.

fastreplies
12-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Ferre,
here is the place where you can rant all you want and never ever never
being banned no matter what you have to say
http://www.middlefingeraward.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=317&p=1360&hilit=scott&sid=6f173f847fd0140025b6caf27baff9df#p1360

;)

fastreplies

Strong
12-08-2009, 05:52 PM
Ferre You know I like you too man, but I'm also a Supermod here and I know what Zap is trying to do with this forum. It is not a place to settle scores or for vengeance. It is time to move on from the past. So please, let us keep it light, fun and friendly.

Ferre
12-08-2009, 06:12 PM
Does one tread make or break a forum Strong? Good to know that. :sqwink:

I had to get that off my chest, like it or not, and you could have known that I do not make a habit of those things but I also believe that there's nothing wrong with getting this into the open, only rotten things cannot stand daylight.

00.03 here btw, and you guys are right, it has no use dwelling in the past, but it also has no use to censor others or yourself only to keep some sort of "friendly atmosphere". That would be artificial,..fake.

I don't know what "intentions" Zap has with this forum, for all I know it's a general chat forum and I was invited, I don't think he wants his mods to be a mind-police like what's daily practise at "some" other forums and your attempt to "gently steer me" is just that and frankly Strong, that's not the most optimal approach towards me, or anyone else for that matter, it reeks like manipulation.

And I don't think that Zap had in mind to have a forum where the mods manipulate the issues to keep them 'politically correct'.

Fuck politically correct Strong, it's one of the things that are wrong in this world, all the frikkin self censoring to keep the goddamn peace and never addressing the real issues.

Zap
12-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Wow! Interesting thread we have here.

I don't know where to start.

On the red rep, I was actually around minus 25 million or so at one point. Now, either a staff member fudged things a little bit in the admincp, or every single member there, red repped me a few times each and it never showed up in my usercp for some strange reason. ;)

I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but there's a way to do it and a way not to do it, IMHO.

Outside of blatant porn, spam and gambling shit, I'm not in favour of censoring. You'll find that there are no censored words here at BTWIMHO. I do think, however, that words need to be used responsibly. Cursing, just for the sake of cursing makes the person look uneducated, IMHO. I don't think that people should be attacked and I don't want that here. By all means, if someone posts bullshit in the politics forum, call them out on it, ask for proof and even vehemently attack the ideas put forth, but not the person. That's abuse and that's not good for any forum. How can we expect people to post opposing viewpoints if they feel that there's a barrage of abuse they'll have to endure because of it? And isn't that the point of having a debate section? To hear opposing viewpoints, no matter how ridiculous they may sound to us?

At the end of the day, there is no age requirement to join this forum and I don't want to have to add one. But, I will if forced to because I don't have any problem with language. The message behind the words has always been more important to me and much more telling.

What happened to you over there was really harsh, Ferre and totally unfair. It's not something that I want our members subjected to. Just my opinion, but I think what happened to you was not the result of attacking a person, but an ideology.

Trapper
12-08-2009, 07:39 PM
hmmmmm. Have I got a story.....:whistle:

Atom
12-08-2009, 07:48 PM
Ok, shoot.

krisma5
13-08-2009, 02:42 AM
well, I don't have one.

gee how boring.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 04:12 AM
Wow! Interesting thread we have here.

I don't know where to start.

On the red rep, I was actually around minus 25 million or so at one point. Now, either a staff member fudged things a little bit in the admincp, or every single member there, red repped me a few times each and it never showed up in my usercp for some strange reason. ;)

I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but there's a way to do it and a way not to do it, IMHO.

Outside of blatant porn, spam and gambling shit, I'm not in favour of censoring. You'll find that there are no censored words here at BTWIMHO. I do think, however, that words need to be used responsibly. Cursing, just for the sake of cursing makes the person look uneducated, IMHO. I don't think that people should be attacked and I don't want that here. By all means, if someone posts bullshit in the politics forum, call them out on it, ask for proof and even vehemently attack the ideas put forth, but not the person. That's abuse and that's not good for any forum. How can we expect people to post opposing viewpoints if they feel that there's a barrage of abuse they'll have to endure because of it? And isn't that the point of having a debate section? To hear opposing viewpoints, no matter how ridiculous they may sound to us?

At the end of the day, there is no age requirement to join this forum and I don't want to have to add one. But, I will if forced to because I don't have any problem with language. The message behind the words has always been more important to me and much more telling.

What happened to you over there was really harsh, Ferre and totally unfair. It's not something that I want our members subjected to. Just my opinion, but I think what happened to you was not the result of attacking a person, but an ideology.


I hear you Zap. I just want Strong to realize how ridiculous his arguments are at the point where he told me that those I address cannot defend themselves, as that was exactly what those zealots did to me down there; banned me for an unjust reason with no way to defend myself.

And it might be because of "ideology" but whatever "reason" it was plain wrong and vicious and it did target me personally.

In fact I'm pretty sure it was because of the fact that I represent a religion they don't like and I had a link to a religious site in my signature which they couldn't handle.

When I emailed the new owner with a peace offer he (at first) accepted it, reeking the money (business) that was part of the offer, but he set a couple of "rules" for my return in his reply, one of these was that he told me my signature would be "moderated".

It was just plain old witch hunting for the old religious reasons, they don't like the message so it must be silenced.

Zap
13-08-2009, 07:42 AM
In fact I'm pretty sure it was because of the fact that I represent a religion they don't like and I had a link to a religious site in my signature which they couldn't handle.

Well, let me say that there won't be anything like that happening here.

I'm not particularly religious, which is to say, I'm not at all religious.
I feel that religion has been responsible for more suffering on this planet than pretty much anything else and it's stupid.
We're all one species and we need each other to survive.

I know there are people who believe in their god(s). And, that's fine with me, so long as I have room to NOT believe in any. To silence someone because of their views is an intellectually retarded act and shows your position to be weaker, not stronger. You won't find that happening here. :sqbiggrin:

Ferre
13-08-2009, 08:51 AM
You know I share your views on religion Zap. That's in fact one of the reasons why I founded the one I represent. It lacks the believe in gods and the believe in hogwash and is founded on "modern science" instead of dogma.

Everything this religion is founded on is verifiable, which makes it rather unique amongst the other so called religions.

We have no gods, we do have great respect for certain individuals who helped humankind to greater understanding of our earth and the universe, such as Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Charles darwin, Tesla, Louis Pasteur, Albert Hoffman and many others and we do not worship them or regard them as saints, we just respect them for their contributions to humankind.

All this doesn't go well with the representatives from the Abrahamic school of religion, they don't grasp the concept of shared goals and ideologies without them involving gods en politics, which are the two basic fundaments of their teachings.

Oh, and I nearly forgot the most important difference; We do not have the use of fear, blackmail, brainwashing en indoctrination build into our system like the Abrahamic teachings do. We do not accept minors into this religion either.

Strong
13-08-2009, 08:58 AM
Ferre, as far as I am concerned, you and me have no argument. We both like each other and are respectful of each other's views. That is as it should be!


Guys, Please!

We are not here to bash other people. Especially people that are not here to answer for themselves.

But you seem to have taken the post quoted above to heart.


Does one tread make or break a forum Strong? Good to know that. :sqwink:
...
Fuck politically correct Strong, it's one of the things that are wrong in this world, all the frikkin self censoring to keep the goddamn peace and never addressing the real issues.


I hear you Zap. I just want Strong to realize how ridiculous his arguments are at the point where he told me that those I address cannot defend themselves, as that was exactly what those zealots did to me down there; banned me for an unjust reason with no way to defend myself.
...


Of course one thread will not make or break a forum. And I didn't realise I was being politically correct, sorry dude! :sqwink:

I don't think my point was ridiculous. It was an honest and factual appraisal of the situation. The people you were writing about are not members of BTWIMHO. Consequently they are not here to answer for themselves on this forum. I actually think you bashing them at BTWIMHO, when they don't even know you are doing it, makes YOU look bad. I don't think you should lower yourself to that level. I believe you are a decent bloke and you are better than this. And as a friend, albeit a virtual one, I feel the need to say it to you.

I hope you are not offended by this, because it is not my intention to be offensive. (I better stop here, I seem to be getting politically correct again :sqembarrassed:)

Trapper
13-08-2009, 09:10 AM
Maybe these words will prevent someone else from being burned by a certain person or someone like him.

Strong
13-08-2009, 09:15 AM
There is that!

But so much in life is subjective. We all wear our own rose tinted sun-glasses ;)

Ferre
13-08-2009, 10:03 AM
Strong, my friend, I think here is where your conflict of interests kicks in.

As for honesty and the ability to reply, as I said, this is an open forum, (unlike theirs) and they can easily sign up here and defend themselves if they like to.

Fact is that there was wrongdoing, fact is that when you do wrong things they might end up on some forum somewhere, tough, that's life.

When we would be talking a corrupted politician for example or political party in principle this is the same, should we not talk about crooked politicians because they are not members here and can't defend themselves?

As far as I know every single tread where I ever anticipated on that forum has "banned" and three big red crosses under my real name and picture, do you really believe that has no continuing impact on my person? And can I defend myself against that? But at the same time you demand some sort of respect from me towards them and you call it "bashing" if I mention it??

Why don't you point them to this tread so they can defend themselves eh? I have nothing to hide or to be embarrassed for and as I said, their wrongdoing is still having impact every single time someone reads a topic on that board with my "banned" account showing (which are many). My real name is on there, not some nickname, which indeed makes it an issue for me until this is solved.

I'll entertain you with some email exchange I had with the new owner; First I send an email entitled "Peace and business offer" on Fri, Apr 24, 2009...


Hello Lee,

I don't know if you remember me, but I am Ferre, the one you banned from the v7n forums because of my scientific approach to evolution.

I frankly don't want to get into that issue, it's not why I write you now, the reason I write is because I have been a member of that community even before it was renamed v7n and it was also the ONLY webmaster forum I ever posted and I want to solve our differences in a diplomatic and business manner.

During those many years I have build up a good relationship with many of the members there and what's more important in relation to this writing; I have always brought my business to v7n members during the years. For example, I have always used the services from v7n members to design my sites and I have bought links from v7n members in the past.

For your information, I also do seo work for a couple of companies and handle a link building budget for a few large european sites, a budget that is rather large and I want to do some testing with v7n contextual links. To begin with I think of a test buying a 100 contextual links (for the first test) and if that's turning out with satisfaction I would start buying many more.
With that link building strategy I also would need to buy links from other sources, sources that I want to use from the v7n members base, as I have done in the past, therefor I ask you to lift my ban in order for me to be able to contact v7n members in the v7n marketplace and it would also lift the reservations I have at the moment to spend money on the v7n contextual link network. Sinds you banned me I have spend more than 60.000 dollars on sources outside v7n, money I would have spend otherwise on the v7n network and individual members.

Because I miss the v7n community and doing business via the members I write you to think about us getting a new start and I also want to offer my business to the v7n contextual link network, my budget only for link building exceeds 200.000 dollar on a yearly basis at the moment and I think that a normalized relationship can benefit not only us but also the v7n members I want to do business with in the future.

So here's my offer; Please lift my ban so I am able to do business in the v7n marketplace and in return I will start placing orders at v7n contextual, To show you I am sincere I will place an order for 100 contextual links to start with, and when that first test works out in both our satisfaction I will start some serious link building with the use of v7n contextual, with serious link building I mean literally thousands of links on a yearly basis for various companies, mostly European. I have the budget in my own account and the only one you would be dealing with is me.

When (if) you agree to my offer and I placed my order you will see that I have 'serious' clients, my first tests I will do for a large multinational to show you a) that I am serious and b) the potential.

Regards,



You see, this was an honest proposal and I waited for a reply, which came Wed, Apr 29, five days later...


Ferre,

My apologies for the slow response. I have been busy with traveling and work.

I think there is a slight possibility of your return to v7n, but there would have to be several stipulations.

Firstly, to speak to your offer of purchasing 100 contextual links, I have talked to Cricket and she shared that this is something you have offered before but not followed through with. That wasn't encouraging at all. If you would like to send payment and get the ball rolling, we can assist you. If you are simply throwing that out there without intending to follow through, then I have lost all reason to trust what you have written and we can bring this discussion to an end.

Secondly, if you are to come back there would be the following stipulations:
1. no access to the politics forum
2. no usage of your old signature and any new signature would have to be admin approved
3. you will be on a very strict watch and would have a "one stike and you're out" policy in place when it comes to abiding by the v7n rules

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Now notice where he mentions an inquiry to purchasing links I had done with Cricket (another administrator and former colleague moderator of mine on these boards) but where I never made any promisses or anything, I was only enquiring if they could serve different languages in their service, and which was prior to me getting banned, notice he wanted to both take my business and belittle me at the same time?

So I replied at Thu, Apr 30, after letting that email of him sink in a little...


Hello Lee,

First of all, just for the record, I did ask Cricket for some information about the contextual links program, shortly before I got banned, it was getting banned that did not encourage me to follow trough with that, and in fact I have spend a substantial amount of money buying links via other channels since I got banned. So don't give me that "That wasn't encouraging at all" line, please. You are talking to a fifty years old man with children your age and please let's get one thing straight, I owe you nothing and there is no need to act patronizing to me, I want to do business with you on a level of equality, I hope you understand this.

As for this test, this will be a small test with 50 links on German blogs for a few German keywords and 50 links on French blogs for French keywords, I will only be testing 3 or 4 keywords in total and when the results are satisfactionate I will run numerous keywords in several languages.

If this test goes well, and this test is both for the service and the results in the serps, I can assure you that there will be a lot more business coming.

Tomorrow I can place the first order, I hope this will show you that I'm sincere and that it will change your tone of voice a little, as I said, I like doing business with people on an equal basis, being patronized does not "encourage" me. However, I do wait till you reply me, for the green licht, so to speak.

Regards,

Ferre

ps. I apologize if the tone of my reply sounds a little harsh, please understand that I want to set off with a blank sheet, from both sides. I want access to the whole forum again, also the backroom, all my old friends are there and I do not want to feel like a paria, in return I do promisse you personally that I will censor myself, I do realize that you want the forum to be christain family friendly and I respect that.

Note the PS in that email, I WAS prepared to self-censor in respect to his Christian values he wanted to set for the boards and I apologised for the tone and explained why.

Apparently the only fact that bothered him was having to deal with me on an equal basis, rather weird considering that this relationship included a business deal that could have resulted in a continuous business relation and he and I had no past history whatsoever, he only bought that forum a couple of months earlier and could only get his "information" about me from people like Cricket whom he mentioned.

Here was his reply on Thu, Apr 30, the same day;


Ferre,

I think it best that we move on and not allow you back as a community member. There are some differences that I don't feel we can reconcile. I wish you the very best.

Thanks,

Notice no mentioning of the other part, the business proposal?

So I thought oh well, maybe he wants to see for himself that I am not bullshitting in regards to that business and that will show him he's dealing with an adult so I placed an order for a few grand and send him a reply on Fri, May 1;


Lee,

Although I had hope you would be able to set aside past differences, as I clearly stated I would do, I do respect your decision, it is your forum after all and at the end of the day it is not that important to me. Having said that, I will place an order for links at the v7n contextual links website and go on with the first test.

Regards,

Which he replied with this one on Fri, May 1, same day;


Ferre,

I have canceled the pending eCheck payments via Paypal as we cannot fill those contextual orders and I think it best that move on. I wish you the best.

Thanks,

So there you have it.

Muddy
13-08-2009, 03:08 PM
You know I share your views on religion Zap. That's in fact one of the reasons why I founded the one I represent. It lacks the believe in gods and the believe in hogwash and is founded on "modern science" instead of dogma.

Everything this religion is founded on is verifiable, which makes it rather unique amongst the other so called religions.

We have no gods, we do have great respect for certain individuals who helped humankind to greater understanding of our earth and the universe, such as Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Charles darwin, Tesla, Louis Pasteur, Albert Hoffman and many others and we do not worship them or regard them as saints, we just respect them for their contributions to humankind.

All this doesn't go well with the representatives from the Abrahamic school of religion, they don't grasp the concept of shared goals and ideologies without them involving gods en politics, which are the two basic fundaments of their teachings.

Oh, and I nearly forgot the most important difference; We do not have the use of fear, blackmail, brainwashing en indoctrination build into our system like the Abrahamic teachings do. We do not accept minors into this religion either.


Ferre holds another church meeting (http://www.btwimho.com/album.php?albumid=1&pictureid=11)!

Atom
13-08-2009, 04:44 PM
Ferre, regarding your post #32, that sounds like John to me.

Atom
13-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Also, in regard to my post #16, I was confusing your current banning with a previous Political Forum ban, I wasn't even a mod at the time of this current banning. My bad.

Atom
13-08-2009, 05:42 PM
I guess I'm still not convinced that a man named Lee owns v7.

I had recently expressed my displeasure over the pope and his position over there at v7, and shortly after that, I was banned for a week under very suspicious circumstances. Very weird stuff going on there.

Atom
13-08-2009, 06:03 PM
I was asked to contact Cricket via a messenger through a chat program after she had banned me, but I sent a message via that same messenger saying that v7 had my contact info, and that she could contact me anytime she chose. Cricket has not contacted me. Very suspicious.

Strong
13-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Hey Atom, I tried to contact you via the email address you left in the backroom. But I have no idea if you got my email or not.

Atom
13-08-2009, 06:15 PM
Hey Atom, I tried to contact you via the email address you left in the backroom. But I have no idea if you got my email or not.I replied to that email. In fact, I have the reply in my 'sent' folder.

Muddy
13-08-2009, 06:16 PM
AHA! Strongy do you use web-based email or HD?

Atom
13-08-2009, 06:21 PM
I will admit that I didn't reply right away though. Heck I think it was just a few days ago. Maybe a day or two before I received an email to join here.

Atom
13-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Strongy, you sent that Aug 4 and I replied Aug 9.

Strong
13-08-2009, 06:26 PM
Atom: Just checked my email box. I have received the email. My two day holiday got things mixed up a bit. All sorted now! I replied to your reply.

Muddy: HD?

Atom
13-08-2009, 06:34 PM
Atom: Just checked my email box. I have received the email. My two day holiday got things mixed up a bit. All sorted now! I replied to your reply. (...)Ok cool, I just now received and read it. Well at least we know our emails are working. lol

Muddy
13-08-2009, 06:37 PM
Muddy: HD?

Hard drive.

Strong
13-08-2009, 06:43 PM
Muddy: yep, hard drive, it is what I'm used to. I hate web based email browsing. I'm not really mobile enough to appreciate web email I guess.

Muddy
13-08-2009, 06:58 PM
Muddy: yep, hard drive, it is what I'm used to. I hate web based email browsing. I'm not really mobile enough to appreciate web email I guess.

Same here, exactly.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 07:19 PM
I guess I'm still not convinced that a man named Lee owns v7.

I had recently expressed my displeasure over the pope and his position over there at v7, and shortly after that, I was banned for a week under very suspicious circumstances. Very weird stuff going on there.

Yes, Lee owns it now and he is very much into the bible, there is no such thing as free speech on his sites, it's not moderated but rather manipulated, there's a difference between moderating and manipulating and it had already set in when John started to bully members when they voiced different opinions than his. Lee is more subtle, he lets moderators do the dirty job for him with friendly and politically correct persuasion and the occasional ban.

All for the good of the community, of course. ;)

Atom
13-08-2009, 07:23 PM
Yes, Lee owns it now and he is very much into the bible, there is no such thing as free speech on his sites, it's not moderated but rather manipulated, there's a difference between moderating and manipulating and it had already set in when John started to bully members when they voiced different opinions than his. Lee is more subtle, he lets moderators do the dirty job for him with friendly and politically correct persuasion and the occasional ban.

All for the good of the community, of course. ;)Ok well you've done some research on him, good, because I was clueless. Ok so what we're dealing with here is just another religious fanatic then, great. lol

Muddy
13-08-2009, 07:25 PM
hmmm, I'll think before I speak on this one.

Referring to post 48.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 07:32 PM
Ok well you've done some research on him, good, because I was clueless. Ok so what we're dealing with here is just another religious fanatic then, great. lol

Well, a person who answers the question "what inspires you (http://www.retireat21.com/interview/interview-with-lee-dodd-founder-of-escalate-media)?" with "I am inspired by the Bible, the Word of God" before he proceeds with "And, I am inspired by my family" definitely knows how to set his priorities, if you know what I mean.

Atom
13-08-2009, 07:41 PM
Well, a person who answers the question "what inspires you (http://www.retireat21.com/interview/interview-with-lee-dodd-founder-of-escalate-media)?" with "am inspired by the Bible, the Word of God" before he proceeds with "And, I am inspired by my family" definitely knows how to set his priorities, if you know what I mean.Ok I hadn't seen that post. In fact I've only seen a few by him. Yes I think I know what you mean. Fanatical is fanatical no matter what the cause. That would be the rational approach, I suspect.

Only a fanatic would put something theoretical before something physical.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 07:46 PM
Yep, and it explains a lot. Like why I got banned in a tread about teaching creationism in science class where I exposed the organisations behind the ID movement for the lying charlatans they are.

Atom
13-08-2009, 07:48 PM
I didn't have enough time to edit so here is the post with the corrections. Lovely.


Well, a person who answers the question "what inspires you (http://www.retireat21.com/interview/interview-with-lee-dodd-founder-of-escalate-media)?" with "am inspired by the Bible, the Word of God" before he proceeds with "And, I am inspired by my family" definitely knows how to set his priorities, if you know what I mean.Ok I hadn't seen that site. In fact I've only seen a few posts by him in the forum. Yes I think I know what you mean. Fanatical is fanatical no matter what the cause. That would be the rational approach, I suspect.

Only a fanatic would put something theoretical before something physical.

Atom
13-08-2009, 07:49 PM
What I did was assume that your link was to a v7 post, I guess I should have clicked it before responding.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 08:01 PM
Reality and bible teachings don't really match well, and there's no way to cover that up but to stifle that fact and many people are still doing that, you know, like children who put their fingers in their ears and say; "I don't hear you!"

Still I have hope that education, just like it cured analfabetism over time, will also cure the self-inflicted dumbing down of the mind which is advocated by the Abrahamic teachings in large parts of the population.

Atom
13-08-2009, 08:04 PM
Yep, and it explains a lot. Like why I got banned in a tread about teaching creationism in science class where I exposed the organisations behind the ID movement for the lying charlatans they are.Well I don't really know what the ID movement is, but my personal opinion is that ID has several facets, of which all are not unreasonable.

Atom
13-08-2009, 08:09 PM
In other words, I don't think that ID should be coupled with a movement.

Atom
13-08-2009, 08:12 PM
You know, the different ideas constituting ID can not be boiled into one movement, the facets are too diverse.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 08:13 PM
Well I don't really know what the ID movement is, but my personal opinion is that ID has several facets, all of which all are not unreasonable.

Atom, all of which are founded on misunderstanding or plain twisting of the science.

The ID movement isn't playing by the rules Atom, they lie, cheat, deceive and do anything to keep their business going, millions of gullible zealots are buying their pseudo-scientific hogwash and are told that it is based on real science, that's their biggest lie, it is not, it doesn't even come near real science.

But the people they cater to don't know that, they have no science degree, they have a bible on their night stand and are impressed by names as "discovery institute" and scientific-looking websites, specially when they are endorsed by their priests to get "the real science" there.

It's all business of leeching on the gullible, it's wrong, those guys are raking in millions feeding that crap to people who believe they are told the truth.

Ferre
13-08-2009, 08:15 PM
And guys like Lee Dodd are complicit by helping those charlatans from getting exposed and chased out of town wearing tar and feathers.

Atom
13-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Atom, all of which are founded on misunderstanding or plain twisting of the science.Well that may be, if you're referring to this "ID movement", but I personally do not wish to associate myself with a movement, and I can assure you that I can easily raise a few arguments in favor of ID that are anything but twisting science or due to misunderstanding. That's my point, I can't see how ID can be lumped into one movement. For example, our seeds could have been deposited by intelligent beings, and on the other hand an intelligent "god" could have created us, both are intelligent design, the seeds possess DNA which makes them intelligent, and if creation is the case then that is of course beyond intelligent. I personally think that to reconcile DNA and all it's ability to a natural cause is folly.

The ID movement isn't playing by the rules Atom, they lie, cheat, deceive and do anything to keep their business going, millions of gullible zealots are buying their pseudo-scientific hogwash and are told that it is based on real science, that's their biggest lie, it is not, it doesn't even come near real science.

But the people they cater to don't know that, they have no science degree, they have a bible on their night stand and are impressed by names as "discovery institute" and scientific-looking websites, specially when they are endorsed by their priests to get "the real science" there.

It's all business of leeching on the gullible, it's wrong, those guys are raking in millions feeding that crap to people who believe they are told the truth.

Atom
13-08-2009, 09:27 PM
What, we're the only planet around with DNA? What's up with that? :sqerr:

And even if we discovered other planets with DNA, DNA is still intelligent.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 04:02 AM
What, we're the only planet around with DNA? What's up with that? :sqerr:

And even if we discovered other planets with DNA, DNA is still intelligent.

Atom, do me a favour, please read this page and tell me in your words what this article is about and what it concludes.

Peptide nucleic acids rather than RNA may have been the first genetic molecule — PNAS (http://www.pnas.org/content/97/8/3868.full)

Atom
14-08-2009, 09:41 AM
Atom, do me a favour, please read this page and tell me in your words what this article is about and what it concludes.

Peptide nucleic acids rather than RNA may have been the first genetic molecule €” PNAS (http://www.pnas.org/content/97/8/3868.full)Ok, but you'll need to present an argument first. Do you have a problem with the quote you cited?

Here it is again:


What, we're the only planet around with DNA? What's up with that? :sqerr:

And even if we discovered other planets with DNA, DNA is still intelligent.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Ok, but you'll need to present an argument first. Do you have a problem with the quote you cited?

Here it is again:

The problem with the argument will be very, very clear to you if you are able to read that article and UNDERSTAND what it is about and it concludes.

Trust me, you WILL know.

Reason why I give you the answer this way is the same reason I would not just give fish to someone who is hungry, I would teach them how to fish, that's much more sustainable.

Reason why I asked you to explain that article to me in your own words is because I want to know if your really able to read and really understand this matter or not.

And yes, it has everything to do with your argument and answers it.

Atom
14-08-2009, 11:21 AM
The problem with the argument will be very, very clear to you if you are able to read that article and UNDERSTAND what it is about and it concludes.

Trust me, you WILL know.

Reason why I give you the answer this way is the same reason I would not just give fish to someone who is hungry, I would teach them how to fish, that's much more sustainable.

Reason why I asked you to explain that article to me in your own words is because I want to know if your really able to read and really understand this matter or not.Oh. Well I thought that you knew me better than that.


And yes, it has everything to do with your argument and answers it.Well why didn't you say so then?


I'm still not going to read it yet though, until you present an argument. You haven't done that yet, Ferre. :sqwink:

Atom
14-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Here is the quote in question once again:


What, we're the only planet around with DNA? What's up with that? :sqerr:

And even if we discovered other planets with DNA, DNA is still intelligent.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 11:56 AM
I give you a hint; At first there was no DNA on this planet. DNA came much later.

DNA is a product of evolution process, not the other way around. The problem with the argument you gave is that it assumes that DNA is the root of life, it is not, it's the product of it, before DNA there were much more simple genetic materials.

The article I showed you gave some insight in how DNA came to be. DNA is NOT intelligent, it is only a carrier for information, like a harddisk, is a harddisk intelligent because it carries information?

But then again, why would you bother with the research when you can all figure it out in your own head, no?

Atom
14-08-2009, 03:35 PM
I give you a hint; At first there was no DNA on this planet. DNA came much later.

DNA is a product of evolution process, not the other way around. The problem with the argument you gave is that it assumes that DNA is the root of life, it is not, it's the product of it, before DNA there were much more simple genetic materials.

The article I showed you gave some insight in how DNA came to be. DNA is NOT intelligent, it is only a carrier for information, like a harddisk, is a harddisk intelligent because it carries information?

But then again, why would you bother with the research when you can all figure it out in your own head, no?Ok, I'll read it now. May take me a while. lol

Atom
14-08-2009, 08:30 PM
Ferre, I'm having a hard time getting through that article.

Atom
14-08-2009, 08:34 PM
Got any easier ones? lol

You have to be a geneticist to be able to follow that stuff.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 09:23 PM
Nah, not at all Atom. One has to have an academic mind that's all. I'm no expert on genetics but have little problem reading it, it is the language of science.

Take this part for example;


A pre-RNA world in which the backbone of the first genetic material would have been different from the ribose phosphate seems more likely, but the nature of this backbone is unknown. One proposal offers peptide nucleic acids (PNA) as a possible precursor to RNA because PNA binds DNA and forms double and triple helical structures that are related to the Watson-Crick helix.

The simplicity of the components of PNA suggests that prebiotic syntheses might be feasible. We therefore examined a number of prebiotic syntheses, including electric discharges and NH4CN polymerizations for ethylenediamine (ED) and AEG, as well as the adenine and guanine-N9-acetic acids and the cytosine and uracil-N1-acetic acids. We show here that the components of PNA are synthesized under potentially prebiotic conditions. This finding makes a plausible case that PNA might have been the first genetic material.

Now, one has to know that RNA was there before DNA, the article suggests that peptide nucleic acids (PNA) could have been acting as a precursor for RNA and tests simulating the prebiotic conditions gave results that made this suggestion plausible.

In layman's terms, tests suggests that a tiny element from the acid family called PNA has been the first genetic material, and this is a few steps and maybe thousands of years before these genetic building blocks finally trough a biochemical process and the formation of RNA eventually formed DNA.

Atom
14-08-2009, 09:42 PM
Well I'm trying to figure out where these genetic instructions actually come from. The instructions are what is intelligent, and what make DNA intelligent. No?

Ferre
14-08-2009, 09:58 PM
Well I'm trying to figure out where these genetic instructions actually come from. The instructions are what is intelligent, and what make DNA intelligent. No?

No. It is just a little more complicated (than two elements) fusion of different bio-chemicals which allows it to store very minimal data, this data is not placed there by some sort of intellect but it's purely the collected data which was present in the elements before the fusion, I'm talking about the first DNA btw. (I really, really try to explain it in layman terms).

At this point, and we are talking the beginning, when DNA was formed, it did not contain the blueprint for civilisation or even life for that matter, it was just as un-evolved as all the rest of the planet and it is only one of the literally millions of other building blocks and millions of years that were needed to go from there to the first living creature (actually it was just a cell). The process to get from that first creature to where we are now is called evolution and took another few million years.

Atom
14-08-2009, 10:02 PM
I don't really see where they've solved the mystery of the origin of these instructions. I see no reason why a cell should even contain instructions to divide, not to mention the diverse things that different cells divide to ultimately form.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 10:11 PM
I don't really see where they've solved the mystery of the origin of these instructions. I see no reason why a cell should even contain instructions to divide, not to mention the diverse things that different cells divide to ultimately form.

You are using the wrong wording Atom, it are not "instructions", it is "data".

Atom
14-08-2009, 10:30 PM
You are using the wrong wording Atom, it are not "instructions", it is "data".Ok, well I still don't see how data can simply compile itself into something intelligent without instruction from somewhere, namely within itself.

Atom
14-08-2009, 10:36 PM
It seems to me that intelligent instruction is definitely required for the simplest cell to even divide.

Ferre
14-08-2009, 10:42 PM
Ok, well I still don't see how data can simply compile itself into something intelligent without instruction from somewhere or something from within itself.

I think that's for the same reason you also didn't see what that article said, you miss a lot of the information needed to be able to see how this could work.

It didn't happen overnight you know, and doing the reading on every aspect of the different sciences that all combined will give you a clear picture will not come overnight either, it involves reading literally thousands of papers like the one I asked you to read from all sorts of different scientific fields which all combined answers most of the questions you now attribute to a "designer".

I see no evidence for a designer, I do see a lot of evidence for the evolving of life by biochemical reaction, in fact exactly that has been done already in a laboratory setting a couple of years ago.

Atom
14-08-2009, 10:54 PM
I think that's for the same reason you also didn't see what that article said, you miss a lot of the information needed to be able to see how this could work.

It didn't happen overnight you know, and doing the reading on every aspect of the different sciences that all combined will give you a clear picture will not come overnight either, it involves reading literally thousands of papers like the one I asked you to read from all sorts of different scientific fields which all combined answers most of the questions you now attribute to a "designer".

I see no evidence for a designer, I do see a lot of evidence for the evolving of life by biochemical reaction, in fact exactly that has been done already in a laboratory setting a couple of years ago.I'm not hinting at a designer, only a design, and to be quite frank, all that we see when we open our eyes is design, when speaking of genetic material.

Ferre
15-08-2009, 05:36 AM
I'm not hinting at a designer, only a design, and to be quite frank, all that we see when we open our eyes is design, when speaking of genetic material.

Well, I think what you "see" is very subjective, in such a way that you even state "we", I frankly don't see that, what I "see" is an evolutionary process of millions of years in which biochemical information has been stacked upon each other and that's also what the science doing the research on this matter confirms.

A "design" implicates a "designer" which is not the case, the "designer" has been chemicals + circumstances + time = genetic material. It has been "designed" the same way a snowflake is "designed", or a river is "designed". not by an intellectual force but by the forces of natural laws and chemical reactions over time.

Have you ever asked yourself the question; what is time?

That, by itself, is a fascinating subject and one needs an understanding of what time actually is, the nature of time is important to understand because it is a very essential part of the evolution process.

To understand time, again, needs some studying, it's not something one can easily explain in a few words.

Time[The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] (http://www.iep.utm.edu/time)

Atom
15-08-2009, 10:55 AM
Well, I think what you "see" is very subjective, in such a way that you even state "we", I frankly don't see that, what I "see" is an evolutionary process of millions of years in which biochemical information has been stacked upon each other and that's also what the science doing the research on this matter confirms.

A "design" implicates a "designer" which is not the case, the "designer" has been chemicals + circumstances + time = genetic material. It has been "designed" the same way a snowflake is "designed", or a river is "designed". not by an intellectual force but by the forces of natural laws and chemical reactions over time.

Have you ever asked yourself the question; what is time?

That, by itself, is a fascinating subject and one needs an understanding of what time actually is, the nature of time is important to understand because it is a very essential part of the evolution process.

To understand time, again, needs some studying, it's not something one can easily explain in a few words.

Time[The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] (http://www.iep.utm.edu/time)Do scientists have the knowledge to produce genetic material from non-genetic material?

I'll read that time link later, that looks interesting. I have to mow the lawn today. : /

Ferre
15-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Do scientists have the knowledge to produce genetic material from non-genetic material?

Yes Atom, and this is the result of what is known as the evolution sciences, with what we* have discovered (*we=humankind) about the circumstances of the first moments of this universe and our planet, the biological and chemical discoveries, laws of nature etc, we now are technically very much capable of mimicking those circumstances and get the same results, in fact this already triggered a wide discussion in the science world about the ethical consequences concerned with this rather new field of creating life, which eventually will lead to humankind's ability to create creatures for all sorts of purposes (I kid you not).

To spare you the boring science papers, here's a couple of news articles which touches this issue in layman's terms.
Researchers creating life from scratch - Science- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9005023/)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/oct/06/genetics.climatechange

Atom
16-08-2009, 11:01 AM
Yes Atom, and this is the result of what is known as the evolution sciences, with what we* have discovered (*we=humankind) about the circumstances of the first moments of this universe and our planet, the biological and chemical discoveries, laws of nature etc, we now are technically very much capable of mimicking those circumstances and get the same results, in fact this already triggered a wide discussion in the science world about the ethical consequences concerned with this rather new field of creating life, which eventually will lead to humankind's ability to create creatures for all sorts of purposes (I kid you not).

To spare you the boring science papers, here's a couple of news articles which touches this issue in layman's terms.
Researchers creating life from scratch - Science- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9005023/)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/oct/06/genetics.climatechangeThis is very interesting. I was unaware of these advancements, I haven't been keeping up. It'll be interesting to see what develops.

Atom
16-08-2009, 11:08 AM
I'm a bit disappointed to see that the articles are from 2005 and 2007 though. I wonder what's been discovered since then. This is pretty exciting stuff.