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Strong
09-02-2010, 12:25 PM
There is this thought that to have morals or ethics you need to have a religion. I don't buy into that, never have.

But what do you think?

Article: Telegraph - Atheists 'just as ethical as churchgoers' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7189188/Atheists-just-as-ethical-as-churchgoers.html)


But people who did not have a religious background still appeared to have intuitive judgments of right and wrong in common with believers, according to the findings, published in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences.

pctec
09-02-2010, 02:23 PM
I know many "Sunday Christians"...

So the answer is absolutely not... I am one of the most ethical people I know and I don't believe a damn thing any more :D

Muddy
09-02-2010, 03:16 PM
They definitely do not go hand in hand in any way, shape or form. Some of the most ethical people I know are not religious and many of the religious people I know are about as ethical as a bag of nails.

Brian
09-02-2010, 03:25 PM
I think the answer is a pretty obvious "nope." It's funny you brought this topic up, it was part of our discussion today in class (Biocultural Effects of War class)

Cryren8972
09-02-2010, 03:31 PM
Although I don't believe you have to be religious to be ethical...I do believe that alot of "ethics" have come from religious beliefs and teachings.

pctec
09-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Although I don't believe you have to be religious to be ethical...I do believe that alot of "ethics" have come from religious beliefs and teachings.

Come from or forced upon? In the past religion has had a funny way of forcing its followers to conform... even if it meant compromising their own morality...

I believe ethics is more common sense than anything...

Brian
09-02-2010, 04:13 PM
I have to say I disagree morality comes from religion (if anything, I'd say it's the other way around). For instance, since the majority of the major (and minor) religions we know about all have variations of the golden rule, you'd have to think they came from some place before religion. The anthropologist Matt Ridley discusses the evolution of morality/cooperation in his book The Origins of Virtue (http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Virtue-Instincts-Evolution-Cooperation/dp/0140264450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265751619&sr=8-1) and goes into quite a few detailed chapters about how we see moral similarities in our primate ancestors, and they certainly don't have religion. I'd go into an explanation here, but I'm just starting to study this stuff so if anything I'd recommend reading it.

I can see how religious people (my parents, included) can think that morality comes from religion seeing as how they are taught that without a god there would be nothing prohibited. Those of us who aren't religious and don't believe in a god find that notion a bit silly.

Marc D. Hauser, a evolutionary psychologist, invented something called the Moral Sense Test (http://moral.wjh.harvard.edu/) which studies answers to morality based questions from people around the globe, no matter which religion or if they are not religious (atheist, agnostic, apatheist, whatever). Before he invented the MST test, though, he started off with 3 basic questions:

1. A runaway boxcar is about to run over five people walking on the tracks. A railroad worker is standing next to a switch that can turn the boxcar onto a side track, killing one person, but allowing the five to survive. Flipping the switch is ______.

2. You pass by a small child drowning in a shallow pond, and you are the only one around. If you pick up the child, she will survive and your pants will be ruined. Picking up the child is _______.

3. Five people have just been rushed into a hospital in critical condition, each requiring an organ to survive. There is not enough time to request organs from outside the hospital, but there is a healthy person in the hospital’s waiting room. If the surgeon takes this person’s organs, he will die, but the five in critical care will survive. Taking the healthy person’s organs is _______.

The only 3 possible answers they could choose from being: “obligatory,” “permissible,” or “forbidden.” Permissible for #1, obligatory for #2, and forbidden for #3. I don't remember the exact percentage of those who answered each question with same answer, but I do remember that they were all over 90% the same (I remember two of them being 97%, I don't recall the other)

Almost perfectly, in cultures around the world including those deep in rain forests who haven't had any exposure to religion (he'd have to reword the questions into situations that are familiar to those individuals... ie: not a train but a crocodile), people answered these questions the exact same way... christians, hindus, muslims, atheists, animists (!Kung), etc.

Anyways, since I'm new to this subject (literally just started studying it 3 weeks ago), he can probably do a better job at explaining it more clearly.

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I still have a lot to learn, sorry if this post goes a bit all over. I got excited for the topic :sqrofl:

Cryren8972
09-02-2010, 06:22 PM
Let's start with this:
Ethics vs morality - the distinction between ethics and morals (http://www.philosophyblog.com.au/ethics-vs-morality-the-distinction-between-ethics-and-morals/)

Cryren8972
09-02-2010, 06:22 PM
With that said...I stand corrected. Sort of.

Cryren8972
09-02-2010, 06:49 PM
I'm going to start with one example:
Adultery.
You could argue that society says it's wrong, but there are many tribes, nations, etc that believe it's completely OK to cheat on their wives as many times as they'd like.
However, in America, it's grounds for divorce. This isn't a belief held simply because someone's conscience said it was the right thing to do...

Ferre
09-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Please leave those retarded American Christian ethics out of this conversation Cry. Before we know it we'll be talking about how they fight gay marriage, stem cell research, science education etc.

:sqlaugh:

Cryren8972
10-02-2010, 04:26 AM
Awwwww! I missed you too Ferre!

Strong
10-02-2010, 04:45 AM
Ferre I know you are joking, but others not familiar with Dutch humour may interpret your use of the word 'retarded' as being somewhat rude. :sqfrown:

You remember that other place? I'm sure like me, you wouldn't want discussions here to degenerate into the vitriolic attacks that you encountered over there. Please don't make our friends here, feel like you were made to feel over there, with the use of overly aggressive and derogatory language. It is self-defeating. To have a vibrant community we need a variety of views. I know you enjoy debating, but if there is no one to debate with, we all lose out.

By all means discuss, but as the gentleman I know you really are.

Halo
10-02-2010, 10:12 AM
There is this thought that to have morals or ethics you need to have a religion. I don't buy into that, never have.

But what do you think?

Every being in the universe knows right from wrong, so says Prot.
_U-tmgC0GYs



Marc D. Hauser, a evolutionary psychologist, invented something called the Moral Sense Test (http://moral.wjh.harvard.edu/) which studies answers to morality based questions from people around the globe, no matter which religion or if they are not religious (atheist, agnostic, apatheist, whatever). Before he invented the MST test, though, he started off with 3 basic questions:

Disappointed that they don't give you results for the test. I was expecting something like:
"You are 31% likely to push the harvested organs of a mountain climbing goat to stop a rampaging gorilla with infectious airborne diseases,who kissed his sister on the butt, from spraying painting grafitti with toxic paint over a vent leading to homes in a tight-knitted community"

Instead I just got the end message, thanks for helping with our research yadda yadda yadda.
:3mad:




... I am one of the most ethical people I know...
Can we get a 2nd opinion? :3tongue:


Is it ethical to stop people from dying if that's what's coming to them? If someone is walking on a train track should I assume they know the consequences? If I intervene how likely is a 'Final Destination' scenario to occur, where death comes to collect anyway? Is it ethical to call another forum member's belief retarded? Is it ethical to feed marshmallows to monkeys?

Damo
12-02-2010, 05:14 AM
Please leave those retarded American Christian ethics out of this conversation Cry. Before we know it we'll be talking about how they fight gay marriage, stem cell research, science education etc.

:sqlaugh:


LOL LOL!

I remember some early members of your THC webiste, that particular American Christan that you ended up banning.

Loves her Oxy's....

Atom
12-02-2010, 04:00 PM
There is this thought that to have morals or ethics you need to have a religion. I don't buy into that, never have.

But what do you think? (...)I don't buy into that either. I think that conscience is born of necessity.

Strong
12-02-2010, 04:14 PM
Please elucidate.

Atom
12-02-2010, 04:25 PM
I'll bet you'd like that wouldn'tcha. Nothing doing, Mr. pervert, I prefer my bowl movements as they are thank you very much.

Atom
12-02-2010, 04:28 PM
*

*

Atom
12-02-2010, 04:30 PM
oops, must have typed a wrong letter or two into the online dictionary, sorry.

Yes I'll elucidate shortly, barring natural disasters and such of course.

Atom
12-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Jeezus, I cannot believe that I misspelled bowel in post #18, that's what I get for messing around with that Dollar General grape juice.

I'm currently attempting to gather my mind from the curbside long enough to answer the elucidation question, it's coming slow. I may have to take some Ibuprofen or something.

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:06 PM
The trick is to know when to stop and actually do it. I'm no magician in that area's the problem. Only American Christians will understand that last sentence.

Ok now onto the next issue, please. Which is something to do with w/e the thread is about, I'm sure. Let me review att = at this time. Ok n/m, I hate new acro's.

I'm almost positive I'm supposed to be elucidating about something much more relevant. brb

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:09 PM
Oh and I know you're all hiding in the guests list. I have ESP. lol

Muddy
12-02-2010, 05:41 PM
I believe one's conscience is like putty and can be molded by many things.

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:43 PM
How DARE you, sir!

oops.. sorry.
lol

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Hey have you ever watched those crazy American colonials argue in the senate or w/e it was? Unbelievable, lol.

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:53 PM
I saw an educational segment on PBS the other day that was quite good, it involved actors that played their parts as if they were of the period, and dressed accordingly etc..
We didn't get to learn like that when I was in school, hell computers were some new gadget when I was in HS, and TV wasn't that far behind, lol.

Atom
12-02-2010, 05:59 PM
Actually I probably should have said that TV's weren't too far in front, but you know how that is right? lol

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:00 PM
Heavens to Mergatroyd! I did the old classic! Replied to post #16! In my defense I was changing locations so had to pack up my computer and re-initiate contact.

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:03 PM
Jeezus, I cannot believe that I misspelled bowel in post #18, that's what I get for messing around with that Dollar General grape juice.

I'm currently attempting to gather my mind from the curbside long enough to answer the elucidation question, it's coming slow. I may have to take some Ibuprofen or something.

My experience is that food is not at all cheaper there. Just stuff like cleaner, sponges, horrible dog food and toys. Yes...cheap toys can be had.

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:03 PM
Oh, I was talking about the Dollar Store by the way.

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:11 PM
I knew that ^.

Anyway that post #16 is haunting me, I'd better give considerable thought to answering it soon.

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:12 PM
Well hell, I know YOU knew that...I just said that for the others.

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:19 PM
Please do not try and lie to me, I know the truth.

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:19 PM
lol

I agree that Ed is good, BTW. lol

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:20 PM
Please do not try and lie to me, I know the truth.

LOL!

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:21 PM
Ed cracks me up on well over 50% of his posts, I'd say more like 75%.

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:25 PM
I agree. At least 75%.

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:27 PM
Jeezus, Muddy, if we ever met in real life we'd probably laugh ourselves to death I swear, lol

God I hope I'm in the right thread, probably not lol.

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:28 PM
I truly think that's true. Uhh...truly.

Brian
12-02-2010, 06:31 PM
I'll supply the green to make the laughs more infectious

Atom
12-02-2010, 06:32 PM
I often wonder about these things, death by laughing and such.. lol

Muddy
12-02-2010, 06:35 PM
Let's ask Ferre.

Brian
12-02-2010, 06:40 PM
Back when I first started smoking my first year in the dorms I would get this infectious laugh that would last for a good 10 minutes. It's a good thing my roomie was a cool guy or else someone else might have been annoyed :o. I stopped smoking last month now that I'm trying to get in shape so my tolerance has come down... I wonder if I could get that infectious laugh back again...

Atom
12-02-2010, 07:22 PM
Brian, please do not expect us to believe such, I'll not have it. Now post something cool and cut the shit.

Atom
12-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Ok man..


When I was young, I tried pot.

And that was the end of the beginning.

Atom
12-02-2010, 07:25 PM
You know all that mind expansion shit that Ferre talks about?

Beware, it's for real.

Atom
12-02-2010, 07:27 PM
Brian, please do not expect us to believe such, I'll not have it. Now post something cool and cut the shit.BTW, just kidding, dude, I'm sure you knew that though lol.

Brian
12-02-2010, 07:51 PM
I know you too well Atom :P

Atom
13-02-2010, 03:25 AM
Yes well that's probably my own fault.
lol

Atom
13-02-2010, 03:27 AM
This internet is really something ain't it? lol