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Strong
16-02-2011, 05:53 AM
Defector admits to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/15/defector-admits-wmd-lies-iraq-war)


The defector who convinced the White House that Iraq had a secret biological weapons programme has admitted for the first time that he lied about his story, then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war.

Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, codenamed Curveball by German and American intelligence officials who dealt with his claims, has told the Guardian that he fabricated tales of mobile bioweapons trucks and clandestine factories in an attempt to bring down the Saddam Hussein regime, from which he had fled in 1995.

"Maybe I was right, maybe I was not right," he said. "They gave me this chance. I had the chance to fabricate something to topple the regime. I and my sons are proud of that and we are proud that we were the reason to give Iraq the margin of democracy."

So much for the intelligence services. If the people they believe are liars what use the information?

Ferre
16-02-2011, 05:57 AM
Bush/Blair found that dude to have more credibility than the two UN weapon inspectors for Iraq who said the dude was talking bullshit from the beginning.

Zap
16-02-2011, 08:43 AM
Bush/Blair found that dude to have more credibility than the two UN weapon inspectors for Iraq who said the dude was talking bullshit from the beginning.

They wanted to believe him.

ewomack
16-02-2011, 01:09 PM
And he had the answer they wanted, true or not...

So I suppose they'll try to just blame this guy and claim "faulty source," which would be crass... but political...

Ferre
16-02-2011, 01:33 PM
We found HIM! (Him=scapegoat) :sqwink:

Strong
17-02-2011, 08:58 AM
I notice colin powell is demanding answers :sqlaugh:

Bit late now.

I think we are all mostly on the same page here, they were looking for an excuse to attack, this guy, but not just him exclusively it has to be remembered, gave them a reason they could use. Obviously, with hindsight, they should have investigated more. But at times 'Intelligence' is based on the flimsy word of one person.

What disturbs me most is the number that have died subsequently. That is a lot of blood on his, and perhaps other's, hands. He seems able to live with it though.

I must say, yet again, I entirely agree with removing Hussein from power. I bought into the WMD argument, perhaps wishing to see it used for his removal. Faulty information leads to faulty decisions, that is how people can be manipulated I guess.

I only wish that Saddam were removed after the war over Kuwait. I know that the objectives were met, but if you are going to go so far why not complete the job. Did they think at that time Hussein was worth saving? I can't see how. And if they didn't, why did they stop short of ousting him then?

That short sightedness lead on to the mess we are in now.

I can only explain the reason for both Iraq wars as being a desire to safeguard the oil supply. What other reason is left?

Muddy
17-02-2011, 12:55 PM
They wanted to believe him.

Do you know how many times I've hovered over "wanted"?

Ferre
17-02-2011, 04:38 PM
I must say, yet again, I entirely agree with removing Hussein from power.

That means you do not agree with the Geneva conventions and all international laws on sovereignty of nations.

I never agreed with removing him from power because that is a very serious crime. Once crimes like that can be committed by "powerful nations" without consequences we can say goodbye to all other basic human rights whenever a "powerful nation" decides to trample them.

And THAT is exactly what has happened and the end of the erosion of our basic rights is not in sight yet.

I didn't like Sadam either, but did not think that is a valid reason to set precedents for trampling laws on war crimes. because it was, and is a war crime.

Strong
18-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Oh I agree with the conventions and international law, I just think exceptions should be made for crazy dictators that use chemical weapons on their own people, or drain whole regions of water to subjugate minorities.

But strangely enough, I don't agree with hanging them, a life time in gaol contemplating their life's work sounds better to me.

Ferre
18-02-2011, 02:27 PM
If you believe exceptions can be made you do not at all agree with international law Strong. One can not have both respect for the law and agree with "exceptions" at the same time, that's a fallacy.

I strongly recommend you to watch this documentary (By John Pilger) btw, it is a must-see for everyone;

-3739500579629840148#

Strong
20-02-2011, 12:36 PM
OK, I just don't have time for long internet videos these days dude. I'll try to get round to watching it one of these days.

I entirely understand your position and agree with it.

Yet I am pragmatic. There is no point in having International laws if people like Saddam can flaunt it with impunity. He got away with:

Halabja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack),
The al-Anfal Genocidal Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign),
The Dujail Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujail_Massacre).

Who within Iraq was going to stop him, not nobody, that's who! And the encore promised to the Iraqi people, his sons Uday and Qusay. And as for the International community; well he was in power for 24 years, he used war as a political weapon against Iran and Kuwait, it seems only right that his end came as a result of war.

It isn't the way International politics should work. But I give you Rwanda and Bosnia and Herzegovina as further examples. At some point someone has to stand up and be counted. It is so easy to hide behind laws, close your eyes and pretend nothing is happening, especially if it ain't happening outside your window.

Ferre
20-02-2011, 06:11 PM
Most dictators are being kept and supported by the USA for "geo political reasons". All the stuff Saddam did was with material support from the USA, even the chemicals he used where made in USA.

Same with Mubarak, and about every living dictator on this planet today.

As we speak, in the middle east there are at least three dictators killing people who demand democracy with "made in USA" crowd control weaponry, and that includes the machine guns used against those protesters,..as we speak.

You really should watch that documentary Strong, considering your latest reply, you obviously need some of the information that's in there.

Strong
21-02-2011, 10:05 AM
Half term holidays in the UK, my time ain't my own, but I'll try, probably won't be able to until Friday though.

But let me ask you this hypothetical question quickly; "You sold me a hammer, would you expect me to go around clubbing my family to death with it, or perhaps build something useful?".

You seem to lay a lot at the door of the Americans but how many other Nations on this planet sell Arms?

OK, sorry, that's two questions.

Ferre
21-02-2011, 10:47 AM
But let me ask you this hypothetical question quickly; "You sold me a hammer, would you expect me to go around clubbing my family to death with it, or perhaps build something useful?".

Wrong question; if you wanted to ask me a hypothetical question that resembles the actual situation, the question had to be like this;

"If I have a reputation for beating my wife and kids with a hammer, would you sell me a hammer?"

The answer is; No I would not.

Besides, one can build with a hammer, there is nothing one can build with a weapon.


You seem to lay a lot at the door of the Americans but how many other Nations on this planet sell Arms?

OK, sorry, that's two questions.

It not just about selling arms, America has willingly and actively supported and still supports numerous dictators from preventing their people to gain democracy, all because of industrial geopolitical interests.

America doesn't give a shit about freedom or democracy, all they care about is industrial interests (read= money) and if those interests are better protected by fascist dictators than democracies, which they usually are, they will actively support the fascism.

THAT is historical fact.

Halo
22-02-2011, 02:13 AM
Besides, one can build with a hammer, there is nothing one can build with a weapon.


What about "machine tools" and "farming equipment"?


I wish Bill Hicks was still alive. :sqfrown:

kqBOMBSDQsI

Ferre
22-02-2011, 05:27 AM
He got away with:

Halabja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack),
The al-Anfal Genocidal Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign),
The Dujail Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujail_Massacre).


BTW, I think you have a gap in your memory Strong, I hope it is not Alzheimer's you are suffering from...

UmalZGHmd10

Strong
22-02-2011, 12:56 PM
BTW, I think you have a gap in your memory Strong, I hope it is not Alzheimer's you are suffering from...

...

:sqbiggrin: Quite possibly!

I'm not sure I get your point with that last clip, is it that he eventually got caught and punished? :sqconfused:

Strong
22-02-2011, 01:11 PM
But let me ask you this hypothetical question quickly; "You sold me a hammer, would you expect me to go around clubbing my family to death with it, or perhaps build something useful?".

Wrong question; if you wanted to ask me a hypothetical question that resembles the actual situation, the question had to be like this;

"If I have a reputation for beating my wife and kids with a hammer, would you sell me a hammer?"

The answer is; No I would not.

Besides, one can build with a hammer, there is nothing one can build with a weapon.


Good point. But weapons can also be used for defending oneself, can they not?





You seem to lay a lot at the door of the Americans but how many other Nations on this planet sell Arms?

OK, sorry, that's two questions.

It not just about selling arms, America has willingly and actively supported and still supports numerous dictators from preventing their people to gain democracy, all because of industrial geopolitical interests.

America doesn't give a shit about freedom or democracy, all they care about is industrial interests (read= money) and if those interests are better protected by fascist dictators than democracies, which they usually are, they will actively support the fascism.

THAT is historical fact.

If you condemn American for that, you also have to condemn the others, and I do not exclude the UK in that statement.

It strikes me that you are an idealist, and there is nothing wrong with that. But in the real world you don't get to choose who sits opposite you at a negotiating table; it may be someone you despise, but politics dictates that you make the deal and move forward (or sideways at least). There are occasions when you don't have the luxury of following your ideals too closely.

I still ain't watched that video. :3embarrassed:

Strong
22-02-2011, 01:12 PM
What about "machine tools" and "farming equipment"?


I wish Bill Hicks was still alive. :sqfrown:

kqBOMBSDQsI

He certainly had a way of shining the sarcastic light on things.:sqbiggrin:

Strong
26-02-2011, 06:45 AM
I finally got to see that documentary by John Pilger, The War on Democracy. Powerful stuff from a very respected JOURNALIST. (That is what journalism is really about, it's power in raw form). It puts into context much of American foreign policy over the last few decades, much of which was inspired by the cold war I think. It shows the fear in America of 'foreigners' and how the Land of the Free is about freedom for Americans but not necessarily anybody else. As I said, powerful stuff. I think Pilger summed it up succinctly when he coined the phrase, The American Empire.

But of course they are not the only ones 'looking after their own self interests'. The Russians, the French, the Chinese and not to forget the British, have all been doing the same over the years. And indeed the Spanish lest we forget, especially in Latin America.

In respect of Saddam Hussein, has it changed my opinion, no. He was an evil bastard that needed to be removed from power. One that was aided by the Americans in their war against Iran remember. So if anything, since they reinforced his strangle hold on Iraq, I feel it was only right that the Americans, and allies, got rid of him.

I criticise the lies that the alliance used to take us into Iraq, I criticise the violence against innocent civilians and the cover up of the numbers that have been killed, I criticise the lack of foresight in not having a plan in place for running the country once Saddam was deposed (ironically the disbanding of the Iraqi army didn't help), I criticise Bush Junior for his duplicity in going after Iraq for the oil while claiming it was about WMDs, I criticise the fact that most rebuilding contracts went to American companies, but I still think that removing Saddam from power was ultimately the right thing for Iraq, the region and the world. The reason being that the people of Iraq could not do it for themselves.

Take what is going on today in Libya as an example. Do we sit back and let the despot murder his own people, or do we help them? What do you think?

Personally I am torn. I really believe that democracy has to be earned, that is how a people learn what it really means. But do I want to see innocent people butchered by Muammar al-Gaddafi? Who in their right mind would?

Leenkz_Mike
26-02-2011, 02:43 PM
This topic is very complex, international politics and conflict criteria, are not my areas of expertise.

I also dont know much about other government protocols.

This is what I know: If I go downtown, and I see the number of foreigners increasing steadily, I know some thing is drawing them here.

If you go out, and you see the number of Latinos, Middle Easterns, Asians and Europeans, diminish dramatically, THEN, we are doing something wrong.

Strong
27-02-2011, 09:40 AM
Hey Mike, "You're not in Kansas any more". :sqwink:

(Sorry, but it had to be said sooner or later. :sqembarrassed:)


This is what I know: If I go downtown, and I see the number of foreigners increasing steadily, I know some thing is drawing them here.

If you go out, and you see the number of Latinos, Middle Easterns, Asians and Europeans, diminish dramatically, THEN, we are doing something wrong.

That seems a strange way to quantify the effect of American policy in the world, if you don't mind me saying so. It bares no relation to cause and effect. OK, so the numbers are rising, what does that mean? What is the cause? Are they refugees from a war instigated by the CIA or is it people running away from the drug lords in Mexico? All you see is bigger or small numbers, you have to look for the reason why, surely?

(Tangentially: as a matter of interest, has migration into the States ever stopped? :sqconfused:)

Leenkz_Mike
27-02-2011, 01:22 PM
Strong:

I was speaking from a simple man's point. I was going for the "it dont matter how bad the economy is, it dont matter how many wars we screw up, people still risk their lives to come here"

Thats all I was saying.

Strong
01-03-2011, 01:42 PM
:sqbiggrin:

OK then!

Halo
01-03-2011, 03:13 PM
:grouphug:

Strong
02-03-2011, 10:58 AM
It's good to talk, how else we gonna learn anything?

Although Ferre is probably fed up with trying to make me see the light by now. :sqbiggrin:

Ferre
02-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Murder is illegal - but because people make exceptions we still have murder going on, the same goes with war.

Cryren8972
02-03-2011, 04:20 PM
Fellatio is illegal in some states...but because people make exceptions...:sqconfused:

Ferre
02-03-2011, 07:37 PM
Fellatio is illegal in some states...but because people make exceptions...:sqconfused:

States in the USA, right? And they disapprove of the Taliban? :sqlaugh:

Cryren8972
03-03-2011, 04:36 AM
I didn't know the Taliban had anything to do with fellatio. :sqwink:

Strong
03-03-2011, 05:30 AM
Is that a kind of snail? :sqconfused: