PDA

View Full Version : Should Scotland leave the Union



Strong
11-01-2012, 08:49 AM
I just realised we have two Scots here! What do you guys think about the current debate in the UK? Do you feel we should go our separate ways?

Personally, I think the UK would be poorer without you guys, but if you really want to go, who am I to stop you.

Muddy
11-01-2012, 09:33 AM
MZ35SOU9HTM

Halo
11-01-2012, 10:35 AM
I just realised we have two Scots here! What do you guys think about the current debate in the UK? Do you feel we should go our separate ways?


What do I think? Not much.

Independence might make sense if we were walled off.
li7T1zwUvpI
Please don't take this as a recommendation for the film Doomsday, it sucks sooooooooooooooo bad.

As we are not walled off, I say no to going separate ways, although to be fair, it has not been given much thought. My brain is already struggling at the mo', so to introduce another political calamity might cause it to blow a fuse and leave it needing spare parts to be sent for.

I have just about lost all faith in the political system, and don't believe that elected officials represent the people that voted for them. How can we believe politicans post-Clegg? Also they don't seem to be good at spending other peoples' money. From a national level to the local level so much is wasted. From the over budget parliament building, to my local town the 'improvements' that the bawbags take credit for aren't really improvements at all, just things they have spent wasted money on. It's just short term point scoring. The local town hall has just had work done to it, and while I've not had a good look at the finished work, my friend showed me the proposed plans (an extension to a building over 100 years old) just seemed awful and so out of keeping.

And don't we have much bigger problems at hand? Like entering a severe depression that, to quote one fellow, will make the 1930s fiasco look like the booming '80s. Aren't politicians, and their well connected pals part of the reason why there are global economic problems? Scotland / England, who cares? It seems a bit like taking sides at football. Is it just an event to distract people from economic meltdown/ Obama's new powers to kidnap people and indefinitely detain them/ hyperinflation in Iran (http://www.examiner.com/finance-examiner-in-national/war-from-iran-could-escalate-as-hyperinflation-begins-to-rear-up-economy)?

These are the people we choose to lead us? As disappointing as Obama has been, it could have been (unbelievably) worse (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sarah-palin-you-betcha/4od).

Hope you have your powdered milk and that extra box of PG Tips, Strong.
:tea:



Personally, I think the UK would be poorer without you guys, but if you really want to go, who am I to stop you.
I just can't quit you Strong.

:hug:




If we did go separate ways would we each stick to our own currency?
gx-a5rYIAOM

tsdesigns
11-01-2012, 10:53 AM
I'm kinda on the fence about the whole thing, and can't say I know enough about the effects it would have if we were to leave the union to make an informed decision - which is something I really should read up on before there is a vote...

From the little I do know about it, I really don't see the major benefit it would give us overall, even in the long run.
I do however have trust in the Scottish government not to propose this if it would just land us in shit.

Everything I seem to read on it seems to be on one of the extremes too, wish I could find some neutral information/facts about it.

Strong
12-01-2012, 08:58 AM
I need more time, back later!

Strong
13-01-2012, 12:23 PM
...
As we are not walled off, I say no to going separate ways, although to be fair, it has not been given much thought. ...


You make an interesting point there! Are they going to put up a wall, cos then it would almost be like the split Germanys. And how far will the separation go, foreign policy?

Is Scotland going to join the Euro? A new alliance with France? :sqeek:



...
I have just about lost all faith in the political system, and don't believe that elected officials represent the people that voted for them. How can we believe politicans post-Clegg? ...

I'm feeling the same way at present. I can't see who to vote for. I have been totally disenfranchised by the current crop of useless politicians.




...
And don't we have much bigger problems at hand? Like entering a severe depression that, to quote one fellow, will make the 1930s fiasco look like the booming '80s. Aren't politicians, and their well connected pals part of the reason why there are global economic problems? Scotland / England, who cares? It seems a bit like taking sides at football. Is it just an event to distract people from economic meltdown/ Obama's new powers to kidnap people and indefinitely detain them/ hyperinflation in Iran (http://www.examiner.com/finance-examiner-in-national/war-from-iran-could-escalate-as-hyperinflation-begins-to-rear-up-economy)?


The separation thing has been a part of Alex Salmond's political motivations all his political life. The problem is he is first minister now, so has the power to force through a vote. I think you are right, there are more important things at present. My fear is that Scotland could end up like Ireland. Yes there is the North Sea oil as revenue, but that isn't going to last for much longer. Think about the RBS bail out. Would Scotland have been able to do that on it's own?

And why wait until 2014? Is it really that important to have it as the 7 hundredth anniversary of Bannockburn? Surely if he has to use that date as part of his argument for separation, then his argument is a little weak? Such a decision has to be based on a stronger case? And if there is a stronger case, then surely it merits a vote now as much as in 2014? I call political shenanigans!

I personally think it is too an important matter to allow light weights such as Cameron, Clegg and Salmond to be the deciding voices. (It will be them who set the question/s ultimately).



...
Hope you have your powdered milk and that extra box of PG Tips, Strong.
:tea:


I just can't quit you Strong.

:hug:


Like a good tea cup and saucer I suspect we make more sense together than apart. :sqwink:




I'm kinda on the fence about the whole thing, and can't say I know enough about the effects it would have if we were to leave the union to make an informed decision - which is something I really should read up on before there is a vote...

I'm sure that is a wise place to be at present, at least until the arguments for and against have been clearly laid out.



...
From the little I do know about it, I really don't see the major benefit it would give us overall, even in the long run.
I do however have trust in the Scottish government not to propose this if it would just land us in shit.
...

Unfortunately it is Alex Salmond's mission in life. It is what he has based his entire political career on. So he has to do it. And it was part of his manifesto last time around to have an election during the second term. So it is going to happen.



...
Everything I seem to read on it seems to be on one of the extremes too, wish I could find some neutral information/facts about it.

Extremes, that is the problem with politics and the media these days. The media polarises issues because it makes their job of presenting an interesting programme easier. They forget that life is more often a shade of grey rather than black and white. It is an added complication to see through for the reasonable man in the street.

Halo
30-01-2012, 08:31 AM
1989

ewomack
30-01-2012, 06:15 PM
Just secede and don't repeat the Darien Scheme again and you'll be fine...

I apparently have very Scottish ancestors... one of them, supposedly a former King's guard, traveled to the "New World" in the 18th century and produced all of my now scattered kin.

Strong
31-01-2012, 01:01 PM
I bet he said that to all the girls :sqwink:

tsdesigns
23-03-2012, 05:53 AM
This came up in conversation the other day again...and I can't say I've been any more informed about the good/bad aspects of it. I spoke/argued about it with 2 others who were both on opposing sides, and to be honest, both of them made good pros+cons.

However, I'm swaying towards voting for independence, mainly cause I'd be very interested to see what would happen/change/etc. But I guess it's not a good idea to make a decision like that just to see what happens...

ewomack
23-03-2012, 07:21 AM
Most people on this side of that ocean thingy don't seem to have a grasp of the UK/Scotland relationship, so the entire campaign hasn't really hit the news all that hard. We're too concerned with far more important issues such as wardrobe malfunctions and celebrities "spontaneously" taking off their clothes on talk shows.

So far I've only read arguments for Scottish independence that are mostly financial in nature, but do other arguments from a cultural perspective exist? What are some of the major pros-cons heard on the Scottish streets?

tsdesigns
23-03-2012, 08:32 AM
do other arguments from a cultural perspective exist? What are some of the major pros-cons heard on the Scottish streets?

The main pro seems to be that "we won't be part of England anymore"...which a number of people seem to throw out there as slander towards the English, but it has it's political roots.
A lot of people agree with it as the 2010 election results showed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/), Scotland have very little say in which party gets elected. Conservative was the majority throughout the country, so they won. Almost none of Scotland voted conservative, and as you can see from the map on the above link the majority of Scotland voted Lib Dem (although I'm sure that would change now due to their fuck ups).
Essentially Scotland are ruled under a party who they didn't vote for, which I think is the main argument for independence.

The cons however seem to be coming a lot from the angle of "we need the rest of the UK to support us" - usually financially.
A lot of people aren't certain how Scotland could keep their free tuition fees for university if we did get independence, and I'm sure the education sector would suffer because of it.
Theres also the fact that a lot of Scotland's finance comes from oil, which is a finite resource, and so we will need to rely on elsewhere for finance in the (relatively) near future.

There's a lot more, but those seem to be the main arguments.

Strong
23-03-2012, 08:53 AM
From the English perspective, there are a couple of points as well. Scotland has devolution at present, it manages it's own affairs by and large, except for international and defence issues which is still dealt with by Westminister. This has lead to some resentment in certain circles; the Scots get to vote both in their own parliament at Hollyrood House and in Westminister, this means they can vote on their own internal affairs but also on English and Welsh and Northern Irish matters. Thus this idea of splitting Scotland from Britain rings bells for the rest of us, there are calls to prevent the Scots from voting on matters outside of Scotland except where it concerns them, e.g. defence.

If the Scots get their separation, a great number of constitutional changes will ensue and not just in Scotland. It may well be that the Welsh will want something of a similar nature, but while the Scots still have North Sea oil, the Welsh probably couldn't support themselves. If the Scots go their own way, there might not be much of the British Empire left, it might just end up being England, Northern Ireland and The Falklands.

SweatyCarrot
24-03-2012, 11:30 AM
2058