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Ferre
05-11-2009, 03:58 AM
Remember those "rendition flights" that according to the US government "never happened"?

Well, the Italian court has just convicted 23 CIA agents for a rendition with a cleric as its victim.

23 CIA Agents Convicted in Italy for Kidnapping Egyptian Cleric | World | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/world/143732/23_cia_agents_convicted_in_italy_for_kidnapping_eg yptian_cleric)


MILAN — An Italian judge Wednesday convicted 23 US and two Italian secret agents for the CIA's kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric in 2003 under the covert "extraordinary rendition" programme.

The CIA's Milan station chief at the time, Robert Seldon Lady, was sentenced to eight years in prison and the other Americans to five years, all in their absence in the landmark trial.

The two Italians were given three-year prison terms following the first trial involving the transfer of a "war on terror" suspect by CIA operatives thought to have sent scores of people to countries known to practise torture.

The CIA chief for Italy at the time, Jeffrey Castelli, and the then head of Italian military intelligence SISMI, Nicolo Pollari, were protected by state secrecy rules, while two other American defendants benefited from diplomatic immunity, Judge Oscar Magi said.

US President Barack Obama's administration expressed disappointment at the verdict.

"We are disappointed by the verdicts against the Americans and Italians charged in Milan," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said in Washington.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro hailed the verdict, saying the trial, which opened in June 2007, had demonstrated "the truth of the investigation."

Spataro had sought a 13-year jail term for Castelli and Pollari -- who was forced to quit over the affair.

Osama Mustafa Hassan, an imam better known as Abu Omar, was snatched from a Milan street on February 17, 2003, in the operation coordinated by the CIA and SISMI.

The radical Islamist opposition figure, who enjoyed political asylum in Italy, was allegedly taken to the US air force base in Aviano, northeastern Italy, then flown to the US base in Ramstein, Germany, and on to Cairo where he says he was tortured.

The "extraordinary rendition" programme was set up by the administration of then-president George W. Bush in the wake of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

The imam's captors failed to take many standard precautions, notably speaking openly on cell phones, leaving investigators to suspect that the Americans had cleared their intentions with senior Italian intelligence officials.

The rights group Human Rights Watch hailed the verdict, even though the two highest-ranking officials were not convicted.

"No one was found innocent," noted Joanne Mariner, while lamenting those who "got off the hook because of the Constitutional Court's overbroad interpretation of state secrecy."

"The Italian government was found responsible for collaborating with the CIA. It was a brave ruling for an Italian court," Mariner told AFP.

"And we agree with the prosecutors that diplomatic immunity is not meant to cover people involved in grave human rights abuses," said Mariner, director of HRW's Terrorism and Anti-Terrorism Programme.

The trial was delayed as successive Italian governments sought to have it thrown out as a threat to national security. Defendants argued that state secrecy rules prevented them from being able to prove their innocence.

The issue went before Italy's Constitutional Court, which agreed that part of the investigation had violated state secrecy provisions but said the prosecution could use evidence obtained correctly.

Spataro earlier Wednesday rejected the court ruling, saying: "There is no legal structure under which SISMI and the CIA could agree to carry out a kidnapping. It is absolutely against Italian law."

The prosecutor lamented what he called the "twisted logic" behind an operation that broke the law as well as sending a suspect to endure torture.

"This only encourages the multiplication of terrorists," said Spataro, who became known for his work against the left-wing militant group the Red Brigades that was active in the 1970s.

Mind you, this is only the start, there are a few other countries where court cases on these renditions are still going on, like in Germany.

I found the reaction to that news from the US government typical and nonsensical, they are "disappointed" about the verdict, I have news for the US government; If you do the crime you will do the time. Their reaction is that of a kidnapper who states that he is disappointed to be busted in the act.

Strong
05-11-2009, 05:56 AM
I doubt anything of significance will happen in the UK, it seems our government is a willing participant. Which makes them just as guilty I think.

Ferre
05-11-2009, 01:08 PM
Nah, I think it was only a week ago when a British court decided that the government had to hand in documents and that procedures in a similar case have to proceed.

Here's the latest news on that case; The Associated Press: UK court order: release torture allegation details (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jFL180sgT0Tc4CKGXoo6U3U59w_gD9BCCAC80)

And there's this going on too; Britain: Reports state CIA “extraordinary rendition” flights landed in UK (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/nov2009/rend-n05.shtml)

Once those things are out in the open, lawyers are involved and in the hands of a criminal justice system the power of politicians and governments to cover things up becomes very minimal, the government in Italy has experienced this just now and the British government is in the process of experiencing this as we speak.

Strong
05-11-2009, 01:45 PM
This is interesting from the first article:


The High Court case itself has been highly unusual. The judges have issued scorching criticisms of the American and British governments for refusing to disclose the information, and they took the unorthodox step of inviting the media to join the challenge to make the information public.

The AP was part of the legal challenge to disclose the material. Other media organizations involved included the Guardian News and Media Ltd., the British Broadcasting Corp., Times Newspapers Ltd., Independent News and Media Ltd., the Press Association, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times and the Index on Censorship.

That bodes well for getting at the truth. Having that group on the case as it were.

But by the time the court case is over, those responsible will be long gone. Next year Brown will lose the election. And as for Blair, he is off earning an estimated tens of millions a year.

robjones
05-11-2009, 01:46 PM
So a few members of the CIA can't vacation in Italy? Wow, that IS a landmark case. Good thing they didnt snatch the guy at Disney World, their kids woulda been really pissed.

robjones
05-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Ferre has tiny little balls


(just checkin to see if you're awake there junior. lol)

Ferre
05-11-2009, 05:09 PM
That's not what your mom and wife say bro. :sqwink:

Muddy
05-11-2009, 05:14 PM
Wow, Ferre's married to Rob's mom? Who knew!

robjones
05-11-2009, 05:40 PM
He just misunderstood my intent. I'm simply gathering material for a scholarly article to determine the reason there's an inverse relationship between writing anti-American stuff on the web and jock size. Was hoping he could offer some insight. It's all for educational purposes, no reason to get defensive. =-p

Ferre
05-11-2009, 05:47 PM
Well, to get to the subject at hand, Former UK ambassador: CIA sent people to be raped with broken bottles (http://rawstory.com/2009/11/ambassador-cia-people-tortured/)

Oh well, if one is in desperate need of the right "confessions" and "intel" as an excuse to bomb the hell out of oil rich parts of the Middle East and invade them one takes measures to get it, apparently.

Ferre
05-11-2009, 05:54 PM
He just misunderstood my intent. I'm simply gathering material for a scholarly article to determine the reason there's an inverse relationship between writing anti-American stuff on the web and jock size. Was hoping he could offer some insight. It's all for educational purposes, no reason to get defensive. =-p

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You are always welcome to come down to Europe with your cowboy hat and boots to teach us politeness towards your superior culture, you might get the opportunity to check out some of those balls yourself, seriously, and while at it you'll be the hero of all the local girls, you American guys have a great reputation with the girls in Europe, they all love your manners, apparently you guys have build quite a reputation regarding those manners and I'm sure we stupid European primitives can learn a great deal from you.

:sqwink:

Ferre
05-11-2009, 06:00 PM
Btw Rob, I just noticed that every single article I posted was from American news sources, you might send them a few complaints about how anti-American they are.

And while you're at it complain to your government too, they are ruining the country's reputation all over the world.

:sqlaugh:

robjones
05-11-2009, 06:09 PM
LOL @ " I'm sure we stupid European primitives can learn a great deal from you."

And they say the internet lacks educational value. :-)

As for what girls from Europe think of cowboys up close , I happen to know better on that score than you do. LOL, you missed by a mile. Apparently they prefer us to the homegrown alternative.

Ferre
05-11-2009, 06:26 PM
So a few members of the CIA can't vacation in Italy? Wow, that IS a landmark case. Good thing they didnt snatch the guy at Disney World, their kids woulda been really pissed.

The European Union my friend, and about 130 other countries the European Union has extradition contracts with for wanted criminals via Interpol etc.

And it is not just those few CIA people that are actually the biggest issue, the biggest issue is at diplomatic level, and that's also where this case does most damage to the USA


As for what girls from Europe think of cowboys up close , I happen to know better on that score than you do. LOL, you missed by a mile. Apparently they prefer us to the homegrown alternative.

Oh really? :sqlaugh:

Well, not the other way around I'm afraid (http://xs119.xs.to/xs119/07392/difference_european_vs_american_girls.sized.jpg). :sqlaugh:

Now, having done with the friendly formalities, what do you think about shoving glass bottles up people's asses to force a "confession" out of them? Or what about abusing a child to force a "confession" out of the father or mother? All this after they've been kidnapped.

Do you think the world should forget about human rights when it concerns people declared as an enemy by a us government?

robjones
05-11-2009, 06:40 PM
Now, having done with the friendly formalities, what do you think about shoving glass bottles up people's asses to force a "confession" out of them?

I dont know what you'd confess to, but I'm game to try if you are.

Your tags tell the tale kid... the thread is a shot at Americans. It was received as well as could be expected by someone from the country that kept you from waking up as a member of the Third Reich. Has the US done some stuff I dont aprove of? Hell yeah. Do I appreciate pissant europeans with a chip on their shoulder about the US more as a result? Naah. I still think of guys like you as the heirs of the brave souls that managed to hold off Germany a whopping 4 days. Wimps.

Dont rub the bottle if you dont wanna see the genie.

Ferre
05-11-2009, 07:12 PM
I think considering the Netherlands was neutral like Swiss in the first ww and and was neutral the second war too, had hardly any army and got invaded by surprise by a country four times as large I think we did pretty well to hold on for four days.

Oh, and as a reminder in case your history teacher failed to tell you, the Dutch government surrendered AFTER the nazis bombed Rotterdam and Middelburg, two large cities, completely to the ground and promissed to do the same with Amsterdam and other large cities if the government didn't surrender.

Of course you tough guy would have said bring it on, flatten those other cities too, right?

Ah, and about those tags, those are done automatically by the forum software, I guess they were taken from the article written by the anti-American American journalist who wrote it.

Edit, ah, I see you added a few yourself.

robjones
05-11-2009, 07:29 PM
So even the forum software figured out it was an intentional shot at Americans. Pretty smart software.

I'm not gonna get all misty about the fate of scum like Abu Omar. He was guilty up to his eyeballs and frankly deserved any damned thing that happened. The report that was treated as if it was exculpatory was full of stuff that showed he was nothing but another raghead antisemitic terrorist thug. I'd think somebody from a country that got invaded by antisemitic thugs might actually hope to see him hung up to dry instead of his captors, but frankly you seem a little more in touch with the other side. How sad for you.

Ferre
06-11-2009, 01:01 AM
but frankly you seem a little more in touch with the other side. How sad for you.

Oh really? :sqlaugh:

When you're done with the ad hominem's let me know. :sqlaugh:

Zap
06-11-2009, 01:23 AM
OK. Here's how I see this thread, and please speak up if I'm missing anything.

Ferre went after 23 CIA agents and 2 Italian secret agents.
Rob went after Ferre and his balls.
Ferre went after Rob and his mom and wife.

Could you guys please stick to the topic of the thread and debate the topic instead of the poster?
You're both intelligent individuals and I think the thread would benefit greatly from a little bit of restraint.

Thanks.

robjones
06-11-2009, 08:37 AM
He doesnt get to vent his anti-American spleen without recourse. My assessment of his motive was verified when he typed this:


You are always welcome to come down to Europe with your cowboy hat and boots to teach us politeness towards your superior culture, you might get the opportunity to check out some of those balls yourself, seriously, and while at it you'll be the hero of all the local girls, you American guys have a great reputation with the girls in Europe, they all love your manners, apparently you guys have build quite a reputation regarding those manners and I'm sure we stupid European primitives can learn a great deal from you.

At first glance that might look like an inferiority complex, but I wouldnt rule out the possibility that it's simply the work of someone that really IS just inferior. No biggie... just another dope-smoking little euro-puke that'd side with terrorists if it means getting to whine about the USA. Who knows where he got the chip on the shoulder... I'm not a shrink.

If he'd done a bit of research before exposing his auto-blame-the-US response he'd have checked out the data on the terrorist. There's a reason the Italian government cooperated. The guy was pure terrorist scum.

But Ferre prides himself that HIS country is pacifist, not evil old fighters. Of course that's the reason his parents generation got their butts bulldozed and had to be bailed out by the US, UK, Canada, et al. We'll probably screw up a lot in the process of dealing with the bad guys Ferre, but at least we step to the plate.

NP for you though... go light another joint and watch TV while the big kids fight terrorists on your own continent. Letting others fight the battles seems to be a habit in your country anyway.

Zap
06-11-2009, 08:48 AM
He doesnt get to vent his anti-American spleen without recourse. My assessment of his motive was verified when he typed this:
Was it, though?
By that point, you two had already exchanged jabs at each other.

If I complain to the waiter that there's a fly in my soup and then proceed to punch him in the face, when he turns around and calls me an arrogant asshole and kicks me in the nuts, I can't, then, turn around and say his motivation for kicking me in the nuts was my complaint. There's a little more to the story than that.

As I said before, you both are intelligent people, albeit with opposing viewpoints. I think the act of sticking to the topic at hand would make for a very interesting read, here.

Muddy
06-11-2009, 06:01 PM
It always tickles me to hear my fellow Americans go on about how we saved everybody's French and Dutch ass in WWII! While that may be true, it should be considered nothing more than a favor returned.

Out of an entire world, the French and the Dutch (along with Spain) were the only ones to help the United States gain its independence and go on to become what it is today. Their support was the equalizer the United States needed and history leaves no doubt about how things were going before those three countries, led by France, entered the picture. In fact, out of the entire world, France and the Netherlands were the first to formally recognize the United States' independence.

So, thank you France, thank you Netherlands, thank you Spain, for saving our asses so one day we could help save yours.

Ferre
07-11-2009, 03:14 AM
Thank you muddy, and don't worry, I am very aware that there are only a few Americans who have no clue about historical perspective or the word nuance. Those are exceptions and I am very aware they do not represent the American people either.

As for my alleged anti-Americanism, that's another one of those misunderstandings due to a lack of understanding of the word nuance, I'm anti-war, I'm also pro human rights, which indeed sometimes conflicts with American political strategies but with those of my own country too, that also doesn't make me anti-Dutch.

For example, the Dutch government was part of the coalition for the willing that invaded Iran and are also fighting in Afghanistan as we speak - I was vocally against it and was one of the organisers of a huge anti-war protest in Amsterdam.

Does that make me "for the terrorists"? No it does not, it only makes me against the way it is fought, I even have better alternatives to fight terrorists, same goal, cheaper and with less victims.

In my view conflicts are created by diplomatic means in order to sell arms, violence is never the solution for problems, it is always diplomacy that ends conflicts, the only reason we have those violent conflicts is economical, to feed the weapon industry and its lobby.

I'd say feed the people - make love -not war. :peace:

Ferre
07-11-2009, 03:42 AM
At first glance that might look like an inferiority complex, but I wouldnt rule out the possibility that it's simply the work of someone that really IS just inferior. No biggie... just another dope-smoking little euro-puke that'd side with terrorists if it means getting to whine about the USA. Who knows where he got the chip on the shoulder... I'm not a shrink.

WOW! :sqlaugh:




If he'd done a bit of research before exposing his auto-blame-the-US response he'd have checked out the data on the terrorist. There's a reason the Italian government cooperated. The guy was pure terrorist scum.

When people commit crimes there's a justice system to take care of that, this is how it is done in democratic countries.

If the dude was the scum you claim he was he could have been arrested and convicted, if there was any circumstantial evidence that would have been enough for the Italian justice system to arrest people, search their homes for more evidence etc. This dude's home was not even searched, he was kidnapped from the streets, just disappeared to have some "confessions" tortured out of him somewhere in a secret prison.

Whether the dude is scum or not doesn't make it right to violate our own basic principles of human rights and justice, that makes us just the same scum. That's the whole point, a nation only has credibility if shows it honours its own laws, any other way is a dictatorship.


But Ferre prides himself that HIS country is pacifist, not evil old fighters.

What a load of quack, the Dutch government was part of the coalition of the willing, they were one of the only countries that did invade Iran with the USA and the Brits and the same for Afghanistan, we have troops there as we speak, we too get corpses home.


Of course that's the reason his parents generation got their butts bulldozed and had to be bailed out by the US, UK, Canada, et al. We'll probably screw up a lot in the process of dealing with the bad guys Ferre, but at least we step to the plate.

Oh really? :sqlaugh:


NP for you though... go light another joint and watch TV...

thank you for being so considerate, I might do that.



while the big kids fight terrorists on your own continent. Letting others fight the battles seems to be a habit in your country anyway.

I hope by now you understand how ridiculous this remark sounds, and how wrong it is. Shame on you dude, for being such a douche, Every week Dutch kids die in Afghanistan because your hero's in Washington's bunch of lies, I have one little advice for you, and considering all the psychiatric help and advice I already received from you I believe it's all right for me to offer some gratitude and return the favour; educate yourself before you open your mouth, it might save embarrassment..

Strong
07-11-2009, 04:08 AM
Have we invaded Iran? :3shocked:

When did that happen, I wish someone would tell me about these things damn it!!!

Surely you mean Iraq Ferre :sqconfused:

Ferre
07-11-2009, 04:22 AM
Damn! yes, I had not seen that, it's a typo, of course that was Iraq. :sqlaugh:

Oh, and here's something for our friend Rob;

fgO2Cy0G5fc

robjones
07-11-2009, 09:13 AM
Hey Zap... I assume you gave him the same request. Appears he ignored it
I'd stepped away from the thread in deference to Zap's request to keep the flames down, but as you have no intent to comply and since I was trained by a branch known to move to the sound of the guns rather than away, I'll respond to the following absurdities:

The boy said...
I am very aware that there are only a few Americans who have no clue about historical perspective or the word nuance.

that's another one of those misunderstandings due to a lack of understanding of the word nuance

educate yourself before you open your mouth, it might save embarrassment.

Shame on you dude, for being such a douche

Seriously. "Douche"? That the best you got sonny? ROFL.

Oh well, I see you overcame your objection to ad hominem
Maybe next you'll get over the inability to check facts before posting, the tendency to misrepresent your feelings as fact, and your obviously justified feelings of inferiority.

Sample of representing "feelings" as fact + sad lack of historic perspective

FERRISM #1: "...it is always diplomacy that ends conflicts..."

Gee, where could I POSSIBLY find proof to the contrary? How about your own country. Were the German invaders that ran roughshod over your [pacifist little tribe expelled by means of diplomacy or by force of arms? [Think carefully, this one will probably be on the test.]

Sample of inability to check fact before posting

FERRISM #2: "If the dude was the scum you claim he was he could have been arrested and convicted ...//...This dude's home was not even searched, he was kidnapped from the streets, just disappeared to have some "confessions" tortured out of him somewhere in a secret prison."

ROFL. OK... I gather this means you are unaware (?) that he'd been under Italian surveillance for years, there were massive amounts of wiretaps where his own words indicated he IS a bonafide terrorist, and more important... the reason he wasnt present to offer witness in the case of his own kidnapping was a small matter of an outstanding arrest warrant for him in Italy.

Did you fail to research any of this or just conveniently skip really inconvenient details?

I won't bother presenting evidence of the inferiority complex. Nailing the factual inaccuracies is sufficient, and more in keeping with Zap's request.

Have a nice day kid. :-)

Zap
07-11-2009, 10:38 AM
This thread is being closed.
I've asked all concerned to stop with the personal attacks and it appears that leaving this thread open to continued posting would be counter productive to that.
Both of you have flung ammunition at the other.
Neither of you has had any repercussions with regards to your actions in this thread and that stands.
However, that moratorium ends with this thread.

You guys don't have to like each other. You don't even have to respect each other always.
But you do have to respect each other here.